TOPIC:

@ Edou - the Ansmann "Launcher" is a completely different design to the "Clash" motor.

Just pointing it out, I'm not about to buy a "Launcher" motor to prove you wrong ... from the specs they do seem a bit lacking, and for me at least, I wouldn't trust the brand of motors again

I think you can say Tamiya motors are of good quality - but often of limited specification, lmited performance, and therefore of indifferent or poor value

Take the 23T Sport Tuned motor, for example - compared to a basic silvercan, they have the same bronze bushes, same brush technology, they're still not rebuildable, they're painted black, and they get the performance boost from having a few less winds & having the timing tweaked ... considering that, the average UK priced, posted, of 23 GBP is poor value ... I still big them up though, because the 30% performance boost, achieved without having to mess about with gearing or upgrade from the kit ESC can't be bettered for less.

The Sport Tuned motor is also a lot cheaper than Tamiya's other motors - all of which may well have a more advanced design, but are of low performance - I think I'm right in saying the current crop are all 23 to 35T, even the Technigold (which people inexplicably get in a frenzy about) was a 21 single - if I'm going to pay 32 - 50 GBP for a motor, I'd kind of expect more oomph than that

Orion / Team Orion, LRP & Kyosho all make motors of similar features, much higher performance ... and much lower cost. However, you then have to upgrade the ESC (at least another 25 GBP), change the gearing (not always possible in a lot of Tamiya cars), so it's going to cost 50 - 60 GBP for a 40-45% gain - not counting the greater number of car breakages and wear, so you can see why I rate the Tamiya Sport Tuned

The absolute "best" power to cost ratio would be a 5.5T / 60A ESC EZRUN Brushless combo from Hong Kong, for about 65 GBP ... I have one of those in a TA03F drifter, using the tiniet motor pinion I could, and with the "Punch" setting turned down to minimum it's pretty much uncontrollable - at more that 60% throttle, no matter how gently you feed it in, it's going to spin, full throttle will spin the hard plastic tyres right off the rims. It's a hoot - but even if the car won't self destruct, long term reliability is far from assured - this is cheap stuff we're talking about.

I also have a "13T" brushless combo, performance I would say is on a par with a 19 Turn brushed motor ... cost will be about the same for half the power

I don't think you can say there's a "holy grail" of motors ... probably the Technigold (much as I hate the idea) would be viewed as the "ultimate" vintage Tamiya motor for most vintage Tamiya cars, the Sport Tuned for all round ease of use & cost for average runners ... the only time you could say there's a "best" motor and or ESC is in very limited terms - if you're regularly racing in a specific class at a specific track, then the "best" chassis, motor, esc, whatever would become apparent.



ps I took so long typing that I forgot what point I was trying to make

Keep cool men with motors
Some time ago, I learned that triple brushed motors have more couple and double are more powerfull
I don't know the brushless. All I know about these, is that for same power, they have more run time (2X) or 2X more power with the same run time.

I think that generally, Tamiya doesn't make any motor. Often they are Mabushi or Johnson motors.
Mabushi is a leader of brushed motors.

Obviously I was speaking about motor well manufactured. I've seen a Orion BB Orbital 17 x 3 prepared for the races that was faster than my old Dyna Run Touring motor 13 x 3. But I also seen a well prepared Dyna Run 13 x 3 and believe me, it was really faster than that 17 x 3...



Max

Jonny wrote:

I think i'm going to have to "side" with Edou on this one - you make some well though out and valid points, but IMO not all motors with the same wind are created equal by any means ... If I understand it correctly, his point was that a low wind, but cheap/poor quality ("generic") motor will be outclassed by an expensive/good quality motor of a much higher wind.

For example, a very good & well cared for "superstock" 27T motor with proper bearings, more advanced brush design & uber magnets will whizz all over a 27T silvercan motor, and in practice has the equivalent performance (I'd say) to a nondescript 19T motor.

And of course, any Ansmann "Clash" motor is equivalent to flushing 10 Euros down the toilet

Kontemax,
How can you prepare an electric motor? I have a old aparel to trim motors but only the timing.
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I run my Top Force Evo with the 12 x 2 turns and it's so fast. The car handle very well on the track and the power of the 12 turns against the 17 turns helps to drive better.
The power and torque help the car on the jumps. It seems strange but with the faster motor the car handles better on the jumps and crashes less, at the end more drivable and safer on the track so more funny and less frustrating. The excessive speed is not a problem. A smaller pinion do the right job slowing down the speed and increasing the torque and the acceleration. The car must not be faster than necessary on the track but more torque and more acceleration helps after the curves and before the jumps.

Max

Edou wrote:

Tamiya brushed motors are definitely good quality.
As are Lrp, Team Orion and Novak for example.
With a brushless kit, you can usually decrease the punch to spare the gears.
I think you could put a "13T" or so in a DF-01 but it would be more fun with something slower...
There are a bunch of brushed motors with triple wires around btw.

.........probably a good job I missed this, eh Edou!
You can only ever "generally" compare motors buy turns, timing, prep etc & the manufacturer's blurb should be taken with a pinch of salt.

The only REAL comparison is when used with YOUR particular car, gearing (& general condition) ESC & batteries, how motor #1 compares with motor #2.

It's all very well saying your motor is rated xxxwatts, but it doesn't mean anything if the battery won't supply it, or if your poorly maintained transmission sucks it all up.

& of course, when we're talking finely tuned electro-mechanics, no 2 are ever going to be identical, despite what it says on the label

This argument is long to explain and needs an article.
Anyway a brushed motor can be tuned up in many ways. You can work on ball bearings, brushes, brush springs, wires, magnets, end bell timing, rotor commutators, rotor wires, rotor balance, break in and so on.
For example I made myself some rotors. I remember I made a 8 x 2 rotor that allowed 65.000 rpm. I also balanced the rotors or lighted up them to gain more acceleration.
I also rebuild the worn commutators with my homemade anionic copper plating. With my treatment I saved many useless rotors. I bought used worned rotors for 5

Re: ballraces in motors - this always raises an eyebrow with me
- I know everyone does it (I have too), but ballraces aren't supposed to be run above a certain rpm (Can't remember what it is). Above this magic rpm good engineering practice says you should change to sintered bronze bushes, preferrably with pressurised oil-feed.
The idea is that when a shaft is up to speed, it should be "floating/centralised" on a cushion of oil, & not touching any other metal. There is a specific clearance between the bushing bore & the shaft, that either retains the oil-cushion, or lets it flow through at a determined rate for a given viscosity of oil when employed in a pumped/pressurised system (eg car big-end or main bearings, turbochargers etc). The "flowing" scenario is usually used when parts need to be kept cool &/or clean.

Ballraces usually have just enough clearance to let them work, ie you have metal-on-metal contact with all of the internal moving parts. This is what restricts their usable maximum rpm.

In the real world, I find that when I change my motor bushes for ballraces, the motor makes a horrendous racket & runs slower. The thing that makes the biggest difference is having a perfectly round comm & balanced rotor, ie anything to keep the spindle centralised in the bushes & no brush-bounce.

I also found that over-timing a motor makes it spin faster on the bench, but it actually runs slower in the car, because you've lost the torque needed to get it up to high rpm